Connie Chastain/Ward over at 180 Degrees True south ponders this week how the confederate flag and the American flag are revered. In her post she has numerous pictures of testicles, banana hammocks, painted nude women and roosters in flag-like clothing. She ends her discussion about how the U. S. flag code is not enforced due to the myriad of American flag code violations with the following quote…
“Gentlemen, methinks you need to get your own house in order before you start criticizing others’. Remember … pots and kettles, motes and beams, and all that.”
I would agree fully with her assessment, however…I am not the one who has a full on hissy fit every time someone somewhere in the south takes down the rebel flag or renames (or even ponders the replacing a mascot) something that once had a confederate connection.
Corey, Southern heritage advocates understandably get upset when pieces of their Confederate heritage are attacked and erased, particularly after critics have waged a protracted campaign of dishonor against it to “justify” its removal.
However, what has that got to do with you holding Confederate heritage advocates responsible for all trivialization of the Confederate flag done by others, but let yourself off the hook when the U.S. flag is similarly trivialized?
You may get upset but you do nothing but complain…you are inactive and ineffectual. As for you comment about a “protracted campaign against the flag”…that is what we say when we call a spade a spade.
As for blaming LCT’s…I am correct. They are the ones that complain if the wind does not blow the rebel flag in the correct direction or with enough gusto. Just look at Facebooks SHPG if you need examples. Hell, some people just post a picture of the battle flag as if it has magical powers and everyone knows what it means. Good Grief…
Well, I do what I can. I wasn’t able to flag Georgia Power for removing Confederate flags from graves in Yellow Dirt Cemetery, but some people were — and it made a difference. I won’t be able to support Lee Jackson Day in Lexington, Virginia, where Confederate heritage has recently been trashed by the authoritarian city government, but I may be able to help the Florida SCV get their license plates. We do what we can where we are, Corey.
And you are missing the point. You implied the Tampa SCV raised the large flag beside the interstate not in support of Confederate heritage, but because of they were inspired by babes in Confederate flag bikinis, and plastic truck testicles with Confederate flags on them. Then you imply Confederate heritage advocates are responsible for going after the people who make the bikinis and trinkets. Well. If we are responsible for policing those people, putting them out of business, YOU are responsible for policing the people who do the same thing to the US flag. Can’t have it both ways, Corey. You made this bed; now don’t kick and scream because you have to lie in it.
As far as people’s respect for the flag goes — how they see it, how they express it — that’s none of your freakin’ business. What’s matter? Jealous ’cause you don’t have a heritage to hold so dear, like we do?
Connie,
It is painfully obvious that it is you that does not understand. I have no need or desire to police those who make American flag pasties or banana hammocks. I could care less. However, you and your friends make such a big deal about events like the VMFA removing the flags from the Lee Chapel and claim it as something akin to ethnic cleansing that you should be held responsible for the misuse of the rebel flag. You in fact have become the defacto rebel flag police, like it or not.
Do I agree with the uses of the America flag that you show on your site…no! Am I going to ma a federal case of it…no! We have bigger issues in this country right now.
As for you last comment, I am not jealous of you “heritage”…it is a hertiage of the lost cause…one of a defeated people and cause which I am glad my ancestors never fought for. It is also the heritage of a defeated symbol..the confederate flag. Why would anyone be jealous of anything like that? You also imply that since I am from the North and my ancestors fought for the Union that I have no heritage. But I do have a heritage…one that won the war, defeated the south and its dreams of a slaveocracy in this country. My ancestors defeated your people and that flag. This does not mean that the flag does not have a place in history or that individual should be kept from flying it nor outlawed at Civil War reenactments, but in public places…places that represent all people – black and white- it should be removed just as they did in Lexington and with the VMFA.
You may disagree with the idea that the flag stands for slavery and that black people find it offensive…but to quote you…”It’s none of your freakin’ business”!
America’s Most Embattled Emblem
http://cwmonuments.wordpress.com/2011/11/19/americas-most-embattled-emblem/
Just finished this book last night. If anyone is really interested in the history of the CBF I would suggest reading this book.
Yes, Corey, I understand perfectly. You couldn’t care less that the sovereign flag of your sovereign country is so trivialized — and not just trivialized, but in blatant violation of federal law.
Our objecting to suppression of a cultural icon by official government entities or giant corporations who hold great power over ordinary citizens in no way places upon us the responsibility for policing the misuse of the Confederate flag. What in the world makes you think there’s some kind of logical connection?
Government suppression, or the use of government by nongovernmental entities for the suppression, of someone’s ethnic, national, regional or other heritage, is tyranny. Suppression by giant corporations who have a monopoly on necessary services (services that government sometimes requires that people use) is intimidation.
By contrast, some idiot selling “Kiss my rebel @$$” T-shirts on the Internet is, unfortunately, just exercising his freedom of expression guaranteed by the First Amendment. Look, I know you authoritarians don’t have a lot of respect for the Bill of Rights — for individual liberty, even when it offends — but there aren’t too many heritage advocates who are like you. We may deplore it, but we don’t think the Bill of Rights should be tossed out to accommodate our disapproval.
If you’re going to pin responsibilities on others that you aren’t willing to take on yourself, then you have no business passing judgment.
Corey, your obsession with us — following us all over the internet, “monitoring” us — betrays your jealousy of us and our heritage. It just sticks in your craw soooo bad that we love our heritage, we believe we are blessed to be a part of it, and we know the good guys lost and we have NO respect for the barbarism of your ancestor’s army, and we know that defining the Confederacy as a “slaveocracy” and nothing more, is simply an attempt to evilize Southernsers and make it appear tha they deserved the brutality the blue-clad barbarians heaped on the during and after the war.
Public places display icons and such that do not represent all people all the time. Advocating for removal of some and not others is not only a blatant double standard — it’s official discrimination and just another example of how the USA is throwing away freedom and becoming authoritarian and repressive.
*Sigh.* You have difficulty following parallels, but then try to draw a parallel where none exists. Try to find any place — any place — where I have followed black people around — say, the NAACP — the way you follow us, and harass them the way you harass us, for “finding the flag offensive.” Yes, you’re right, I disagree that most of black people find the flag offensive enough to think it should be banned. A small handful of leaders and instigators, like NAACP-types at the national and local level, are the ones you see quoted in newspaper articles, rarely ordinary black folks. Many of them may not like it, but they don’t raise a stink about it — the way most Confederate heritage folks don’t raise a stink over what offends us and clamor for it to be banned.
Besides, we may think they’re mistaken in how they view the flag, but in general, our view is that they need to be educated about it — know more about it, or at least to become acquainted with why we see it differently. You, on the other hand, think we are mistaken in our view of the flag, etc., and because of that, you advocate for, or at least approve of, government suppression of our cultural icons. See the difference?
Go back and look at the times when I’ve told you what’s none of your business — i.e., how heritage advocates feel about the flag (why is it any of your business to tell ANYbody what they should FEEL about ANYthing?) or how they choose to express it. You may not approve of that — there are some things people do that I don’t approve of, too, but it’s not up to me — or you — to tell them they can’t, or to try to intimidate it out of them. Besides, for somebody who hates the Confederacy and heritage advocacy, you sure are zeroed in on it, on those who engage in it.
Connie,
Since when have you cared about federal law?
I am an authoritarian? Really…what part of letting the rebel flag fly at reenactments or from private property did you not understand? Authoritarian? Hardly.
I am not really passing judgment…it may appear that way…but what I am really doing is pointing out hypocracy. And when it comes to you Connie, there is plenty to go around.
Could you give me an example of public places displaying icons that do not appeal to all people…just curious as to your example…thanks in advance.
Your view is that people need to be educated about the flag and the war…but you refuse to put the war in the context that those who fought it put it…you refuse to acknowldege the role slavery played in the coming of the war. The secession commissioners are very explicit in their explination of why the south seceded and went to war…Slavery! Start accepting that the south wanted to protect slavery and est. a slavocracy in this country and we can move forward. Start accepting that the rebel rag is a flag of a slave nation and then we have something. Until then…well…
I may not approve of how you express your thoughts about the rebel rag, but I can expect correct historical facts to be explained and understood and you have a great deal of understanding to do.
What is there about my statement that implies I care about federal law? You’re the big gung-ho, U.S. flag-wavin’ patriot, aren’t you? Now I find out you couldn’t care less about the illegal misuse of your flag… Way to go, Corey. Unless you DON’T really care about the US and it’s candy-striped flag, and all you really care about it having something — the South, the Confederacy, Southerners — to hate.
Yes, you’re an authoritarian because you think it’s up to you to dictate to others not only what they can and cannot do, but what they must and must not think, believe, feel.
How about a gay pride rainbow flag flown in by a federal reserve bank? The banks aren’t governmental agencies, but they’re certainly a public place, and one that highly influences (and/or is influenced by) the government.
What I refuse to do is accept that YOU are the authority on putting the war in the context that those who fought it did. I haven’t refused to acknowledge the role slavery played in the build up to the war; I simply think that role was different than you think it was. I haven’t denied the South wanted to protect slavery (you’re welcome to try to find where I have), but I acknowledge there were ALSO other reasons that YOU refuse to acknowledge. Let me explain it this way.
For illustrative purposes, let’s say there were four factors that caused the war — A, B, C and D. You and all the pushers of the victor fables, including the academic establishment, the popular culture, government, etc, all say, “A was the reason! A, A, A!” So some of us come along and say, “But what about B? There was also C and D.” and you scream, “You’re refusing to acknowledge that A had anything to do with it when it was ALL ABOUT A! Read what the secession commissioners said!! It was all about A, A, A!!!”
Well, no, we’re not refusing to acknowledge A. A has been brought up and brought up and, as we used to say, driven in the ground and broke off. Nobody’s gonna overlook “A” simply because we are bringing up B, C and D — you know, those factors that get ignored — and I think they are INTENTIONALLY ignored by the all-slavery, only-slavery folks such as yourself.
I don’t think the South wanted to establish a slavocracy, or anything else, in THIS country. It wanted to GET AWAY from THIS country. I understand that the Confederate flag was the flag of an Army whose nation sanctioned slavery. So what? The USA sanctioned slavery, too, and WORSE. The northeast got very rich off of it, even after it was abolished in the north. So as long as you say “rebel rag” there’s no need for me to pay any attention to anything else you say and you can wait until hell freezes over to “move forward.”
I understand historical facts. I also understand where you’re coming from — and I understand that your motives that make you an unreliable source for “correct historical facts.” Oh, yes, I understand the motives and that is why I have such extreme disrespect for the dishonest and hypocritical demonization of the Confederacy and the South.
Connie,
Whether I do care or don’t care about others use of the American flag is irrelevant…I really cannot do anything about it…nor do I want to do anything about it. If I did I would be too much like you, Suasn Frise Hathaway and David Tatum, Jr. (Insert Serenity Prayer here!)
I will argue that I am not an authoritarian simple for the fact that I am not really trying to tell other people what to think…it is more pointing out their flaws and such than telling them what to think or how to act. However, in the process of enlightening them, if they change their minds or come to understand history better than so be it!
When I discuss the war I am not putting it into my own words I am basing it on original source material…like the Secession Commissioners who speak very clearly on the matter of why secession happened in their state and why other slave-holding states should follow suit. Hint…it was slavery.
Victory Fables…that is a new one…but sadly you are very wrong. Your little A, B, C, & D example falls flat on its face. If you read the Secession Commissioners …and I mean really read them…they put everything in the context of A- Slavery. They may briefly mention in a couple of speeches B, C or D…but all in the context of A- Slavery. This would explain why when SC debated secession in Dec. of 1860 they made the statement that it was not the tariff which had brought them to this point. It may have in 1832, but in 1860 the issue was slavery.
I don’t refuse to acknowledge anything…it is the Civil War contemporaries that fail to mention the other things that you so lovingly cling. Can we find private soldiers and such who claim other reasons for their fighting…sure…but in the end, they are fighting for what their country is fighting for…and that was…well…do I really need to mention it again.
Let me see if I can put this in perspective. WWII soldiers mention frequently that they fought for one and another…you know…the guy next to you in the foxhole, or to make it home to their sweetheart. However if you look at the official goal of the war it was to defeat the Nazi’s and Japanese. So it does not really matter in some sense what the individual soldier was fighting for. It is obvious that many Northern soldiers were not fighting for emancipation due to the number who left in 1863 once the E. P. went into effect. We can also believe that there were more who disagreed but stayed on. They were not fighting to free the slave, but Government policy says different in 1863.
I do hope this get put through your little Pinnochiometer or whatever it is…this should be fun.
Corey, I think that you are never going to be able to get the Lost Cause Traditionalists to grasp the facts, their lame-brain ideas are too ingrained in them. Much like those people that believe that we are being visited by little green men from outer space because they have heard about people that have been abducted by UFOs, the Lost Cause Traditionalists are true believers in the myths passed down by their ill-educated forefathers.
Fortunately these of little knowledge are in the minority. Most intelligent southerners understand what reality is and accept that bitter pill and move along. I must admit that I do find it humorus that these same elitists that boast of their superiority have to resort to embracing the very people that they tried so deparately to keep in bondage in order to claim that the war had nothing to do with slavery.
A few of these Lost Cause Traditionalists pop up at reenactments periodically and rant about how the war had nothing to do with slavery but the vast majority of reenactors, both north and south, rolls their eyes and ignores them or laughs behind their backs.
Mr. Bridgeman, nice try at condescension, but it lacks some essential elements. Haughtiness needs certain supports under it, starting with truth and fact; without them, it degenerates into unintended slapstick. Another factor is that you’re a man, I assume — and condescension is best left to the experts at it. Women.
“…elitists who boast of their superiority…” appears to be a figment of your imagination; you won’t find claims of elitism on my part, OR boasting of superiority (except, maybe, on the superior job women do at condescension). There’s nothing stopping you from looking, though — but you won’t find it anywhere but in your imagination.
May come as a surprise to you but I’ve never tried to put or keep anyone in bondage, and never met/known anyone who has. Are you a reenactor? Perhaps that might be a factor in your apparent tendency to conflate past and present?